Questions to a horseman…
- What does the horse want?
- What needs must be fulfilled for his survival?
- What are the horse’s needs for happiness?
- Does the horse feel pain?
- How can he inform us if he experiences pain?
- How are your needs impacting on his needs?
- What does our world mean to him?
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{ 9 comments… read them below or add one }
Very good questions that every horse owner should ask. What do you think about horses feeling pain?
I know in some circles animals are thought to feel pain but not to have an emotional response to pain (suffer) as humans do. It is thought of an as an evolutionary advantage for most animals to lack this emotional pain response as displaying pain is displaying weakness. Just because an animal does not show suffering though does not mean it does not feel suffering right? So it is hard to say for sure.
My own feelings on pain is that pain causes negative associations with what ever caused it. This alone is a good enough reason to avoid pain in training and keeping horses. Negative associations are also what I look for to judge whether my animals are in pain or not. I think horses suffer emotionally more from loss of freedom and biological function than they do from pain(ie confinement, isolation, restrictions on forage and movement). I don’t think it means that we should think of them as stoic painless animals though.
And as for what they think of our world- I have no idea! I wish I knew and I often wonder.
Molly, profound… thanks very much, just the sort of discussion I was hoping to encourage….
Your point on not displaying weakness as an evolutionary advantage is one is a very good one. It makes one wonder at what point a level of pain becomes intolerable enough to be demonstrated, and may help explain the dullness seen in horses trapped in Rollkur/hyper-flexion.
Emotions are such a difficult one – as it is hard to quantify and measure them. While scientists aren’t allowed to extrapolate on the concept of animal emotion, they may hold personal thoughts that an animal isn’t purely a Behaviourist machine! I think one of the worst things in the world would be to discover on one’s death-bed that horses were a lot richer in their internal lives than we ever gave them credit for, so I try to maintain a degree of open-mindedness on this ; )
Most of our training of horses utilises mild (hopefully) forms of discomfort, with the use of negative reinforcement (for example removal of hand or leg pressure). I don’t think this makes it bad, but does put an added onus on the rider/trainer to fully understand and apply learning theory in their training. This is sadly the problem seen in the work of many practitioners of the German training method, when the aids are conflicting. And yet, there are many that do not realise that the Emperor has no clothes!
Very good points, I often think about these things myself; tending to think the pain is as much a problem as loss of freedom and biological function.
Amazing questions!
I think its intriguing on what horse’s need to find happiness because if you put two horses together, they both seem to want or need two different things. I sometimes think that certain horses just want to work together in harmony sharing the responsibility. So if these two are put together they should find more happiness than a paring that wants two different things.
Also I often wonder what horses think of our world especially since horses respond to everything in such strange and different ways. I try to think about how they would process things in the wild, but of course that is hard to do due to the fact that they would never face such things.
Thanks, Shannon…
Individual difference do seem to count for a lot. One horse may be more motivated by company, another by food, another by comfort. I once experienced an interesting naturally-occurring experiment – in a cold southerly at the top of an exposed hill three horses were on two sides of a fence – they had the ability to move to very good shelter, to eat (and in a sheltered environment), BUT… the horses chose company in the cold wind, over either food or shelter… I wonder what you have seen that you would like to share?
Yesterday I had a wonderful experience that reminded me of how different my horse are from each other. I own two geldings and a mare, and yesterday we put together for the first time in about 7 months. It was very interesting to see all at once what they choose to do. One gelding was playing and running all over the place, greeting the mare, checking out his new surroundings. While another was in search of “his” grass patch and once he found it he stayed. Then the mare was looking out for her old pasture mate for a little while, but then checked out the geldings and began to graze. By the time we left the barn everyone was slowly grouping together. I just found it so interesting to see how they all went their separate ways at first but came together happy as can be at the end of they day.
Very interesting questions and ones that I hope people actually take the time to answer. Horses are beautiful and amazing animals. The wild horses I used to see in Nevada were the most beautiful of all. Free to be…
Hi Jacqueline,
Yes, frequently one has to think they are better off without us.
I don’t know about in Nevada, but in wild horses that have constrained home ranges typically suffer high worm burdens – one thing we could do for them… but natural selection occurs to ensure a more robust population.
Food for thought.
Hi,
I just stumbled on your site. You ask some good questions. A few months ago I rented Jim Masterson’s video on Equine Massage. (http://www.mastersonmethod.com/) It was one of the most profound experiences of my life! I have a mare who is very introverted and quite frankly it is hard to read her. Is she in pain? I just don’t know. What I learned from Jim’s work were ways to read her communications, which are -so- subtle, quite frankly that I’d missed them. And, this from someone who’s life’s work is helping people to see the more subtle stuff! (http://www.horsemansarts.com) I’m now seeing a whole new level of communication about how they feel from all the horses I work with. Good stuff!
Hi Sharon, thanks for dropping by!
Your site looks interesting, and has great references on it. I haven’t seen a copy of Dr Nancy Nicolson’s book on biomechanics, but have seen it recommended by others, so looks like an interesting and pertinent read, and I hope to one day get my hands on it!
Regarding the Masterson Method – you know, as a ‘trainer’, it is easy to blame oneself and one’s own training rather than recognise another issue. This is part of the jigsaw that a good therapist, saddle-fitter, dentist etc can play, but also, as you say – the personal awareness to recognise a difficulty, or a tiny reaction. Some horses are quite staunch, some will let you know about the smallest thing!
I am always keenly aware of other aspects of the horse and his life – not to make excuses for him, but to truly try to understand how it is for him – meaning whether it is a training issue, or a physical or physiological issue. Sometimes I have to say ‘this is not something I can help you with – and this is why’ – it may be a teeth issue, or something requiring a vet (that we will not know until the horse is tested), or saddle-fitting, etc.
I guess I should qualify this by saying that, like you, my ‘day-job’ is training horses with behavioural problems, as well as starting youngsters and giving riding lessons. Recently there was a horse that had sometimes bizarre (unexpected) explosion behaviours under saddle – it turned out to be gastric ulcers. Of course, the horse can not be focused on a stimulus from a rider or handler that is overshadowed by a desperate pain from gastric ulcers, and reacted to the more pressing discomfort.
It is interesting regarding the ’switched off’ horse – sometimes that is what it is like when you go to help a horse – his eye is very dull, and he may even walk away from the owner in the paddock when he is being caught. It is something we should always aim for – to keep the horse’s spirit alive. I was just looking at a book by Sylvia Loch the other day – you will see a perfect example of what we are talking about here on page 246 of Dressage in Lightness, Speaking the Horse’s Language in her horse Andorinha, we see the dull switched-off-ness of the horse before and after – a horse that now looks magnificent, aged 18.
Thanks once again, keep in touch, Sharon.